Report: 1 of 2 recent college graduates under/unemployed

[M2nFarisFan]

I'm resurrecting this thread because of last night's "60 Minutes" episode about how nearly 3 million jobs are going unfilled because of a lack of skilled applicants. Story here.

Sad to hear that no one's qualified, and if you read it, he takes a couple of rips on the American educational complex....but really, who wants to do that kind of labor for $12 an hour? And work 70+ hours a week with "perfection" in mind? I don't know, I would do the work....but for what you are expected to do, I'd want at least $15-16 unless they are paying for training.

Besides, anyone besides me wondering when we'll end the college degree and go back to the company training the employees? Like it was for the first 10,000 or so years civilization exists.

One stunning fact (which we all know): If you are good with your hands, learn a trade. If you're clumsy, stick to the books. I wish I had an aptitude for building engines or plumbing. I'd be making a heck of a lot more....but then again, you might be paralyzed by the age of 55 with the physical labor. Although the machinist job sounds like something I'd be able to do. (Maybe the ACT/SAT should be replaced by the aptitude test, long shunned by the PC crowd.)

[TheNewNeko]

I'm resurrecting this thread because of last night's "60 Minutes" episode about how nearly 3 million jobs are going unfilled because of a lack of skilled applicants. Story here.

Sad to hear that no one's qualified, and if you read it, he takes a couple of rips on the American educational complex....but really, who wants to do that kind of labor for $12 an hour? And work 70+ hours a week with "perfection" in mind? I don't know, I would do the work....but for what you are expected to do, I'd want at least $15-16 unless they are paying for training.

I think the latter may have to do more with the reason why than the former. If you sit down and think about it, Steve-o, people don't want to work 70 hours a week unless there's a huge incentive to do it.

Have you ever actually worked 70 hours a week? I'm not asking you this because you are a member of the Bourgeois. I'm asking you this because I've never done it. My record is 62 at my first job. I can tell you that starting at 55 hours, you go stir crazy. There would be nights I would come home and pass out on the sofa at midnight because I wouldn't have enough strength to actually go to bed.

Besides, anyone besides me wondering when we'll end the college degree and go back to the company training the employees? Like it was for the first 10,000 or so years civilization exists.

That's actually not why businesses look at degrees. Let me be brutally honest with you (like I haven't been already). Why do companies look for degrees? Honestly? It's not for applicable skill, because most businesses have to train you anyways, since your skills may not only be several years out of date, but also may not relate to the field you're in. Technology changes at a rate where your training which may be 3 or 4 years old may be out of date. Technology changes are getting faster and faster all the time. Plus, as someone who has been employed at about 20 businesses, I can tell you that every one of them has some idiosyncrasy that they do, which means they have to train you anyways.

Businesses look for college degrees to see, basically, to what extent, they have the balls to stick with their desire to go out there and finish what they started. Sure, a person who blew $160 large on a Ped State education like you might have a slightly better chance than me who only got his degree from a state school, however, the odds aren't that much in your favor, because of the fact that both are Bachelor's Degrees.

The higher up the educational ladder you go, the more the company thinks "This guy's got the guts to finish a project". I know a guy who had a Master's Degree in Engineering. He's in construction. Good ol' Obamaconomy in full force.

One stunning fact (which we all know): If you are good with your hands, learn a trade. If you're clumsy, stick to the books. I wish I had an aptitude for building engines or plumbing. I'd be making a heck of a lot more....but then again, you might be paralyzed by the age of 55 with the physical labor. Although the machinist job sounds like something I'd be able to do. (Maybe the ACT/SAT should be replaced by the aptitude test, long shunned by the PC crowd.)

The blue-collar field is high pay but also high exertion. I admit this, hands down. I also know I'd never be able to do it because of the motor skill deficiency that I have. It's not mild, let's put it this way. The doctors flat out told my mom at the age of 3: "This kid is never going to work on the assembly line". It's also why I never liked drawing. The world of art intrigues me but I'm downright terrible at it.

[M2nFarisFan]

OK, Neko, don't take this the wrong way. I get your points, and they are valid. However, there's a couple of things I disagree with.

- First off, if you think the Master's is the way to go to guarantee a job, think again. Remember my friend Carina? She got her 160k Ped State degree and got into a Big Four. But she was worked off her horse, even though she had the CPA certification in addition to the MS/MBA. And all the people she started with? All at the bottom. A lot of them being Bachelor's holders. I'll be honest with you, with Obama wanting everyone to go to college, give it 10 years and a non-thesis Ph.D. will be the entry level.

- I think I confused you on the first one. I would take the $12 an hour job, but not at 70+ hours. Actually, no company should have workers do more than 45-50 legally. They should have to hire others by law. I can say that the short-term extra benefits would be balanced out by increased revenues in the synoptic scale. I've done 50 a couple of times (5 days of open-close at the store). The issue I had with this company was primarily the fact that $12 an hour is NOT a living wage. $30 an hour is barely that, especially with the fact that it costs $680 a week for food now here at my house.

- In terms of the Penn State degree, the issue (as I've always noted) is recognition. Sure, you can accuse me of being a member of NAMBLA. But I've also noted (somewhere on the interwebz) that 5-10 years from now, the Penn State degree of this era (classes of probably 2008-2016) are going to be looked upon as the ultimate underdogs in the industry. I know you've gone to University of La Verne, but outside of California, it's essentially nothing (I've tried to tell a few people about it, and they said "Who?". And I can tell you with the fact that accountants, along with engineers and X-ray techs are probably the next big offshoring project, especially with the increased taxes in the next few years. Given the fact that you don't need physical plant when you can crunch numbers in Shanghai, and paying you $100 when a high-schooler can do the computing for 90% less, I'd say Carina and I both have the name recognition, so she could move to New York and me to essentially anywhere where there's air, water, and minerals. And with 100 million+ working age adults out of work, you need everything pulling for you - it may make the difference. Just a thought.

- I actually think that the whole manual labor thing is going to be remedied in the next four years. Because of massive student loan debt, technical and vocational schools will begin filling up. I toured WyoTech in Blairsvill e, PA about a year ago with my cousin, who wants to be an auto body repair tech. Let's just say that it isn't easy material. You have to have a brain on your head. But I can tell you right now that if he goes there, he's going to be making at least $50 an hour - or since my stepdad is a Benz tech, probably almost $100 plus benefits and uniform - after shop rates. In short, in 2020, we may have a shortage of office jockeying.

- Finally, a good point in this: It should dawn upon you, Big Steve, that if we continue to have an attitude where we treasure profits over all, that we're not going to have jobs created. Carina has a job I know you'd want - trust me on that. The problem is that the huge cubicle centers are America's version of Foxconn. And the wages aren't much better. Sure, I can see a point where you'd be able to get past it by going to corporate America, away from the call centers. And you'd be fine with it. But all those temp agencies and 20 jobs in 15 years? It's not your Asperger's at all. It's the corporate attitude of trickle-up economics. The inherent issue of continuing to keep the labor pool large and wages down is not making this country any better.

A lot of people are blaming Obama for it because of the healthcare plan, but I always tell people that it's your responsibility to get the skills and knowledge necessary for the job. Obama doesn't care about you. Neither would Romney, or Roseanne Barr, or Michael Douglas if he was the POTUS. I realized that throwing my arms up in the air and saying "it's hopeless" doesn't work. The economy is not as bad as most make it. Despite the fact that if I finish the M.S., I may very well be nearing $250,000 spent on college, I know that taking initiative works. But there are a lot of other skills besides the degree. Like the mantra that your interview is over in the first 15 seconds of speaking with the company representative. And even though I'm a lot closer to the 1% than you, I do work for minimum wage and gross about $1300 a month after taxes and commission.

I still think that college does not prepare anyone any better than taking a kid at 18 and having him or her tag along. Training is irrational when the labor pool is so large.

[billycw]

I really feel for you guys. I had to work slave labor jobs through undergrad at 3.35 an hour in the 80's. But at least I could use those awful jobs and turn them into cash that helped tuition( slightly) and helped pay for other things that helped me live. Now, not only can't you guys get a job in some cases, those shi##Y jobs can't even make a dent in tuition and barely pays for gas. Unless you were born with a silver spoon in your nose or had Momsy and Daddy take care of everything, it's worse than what I had to endure.

True, the new BS is the old HS Diploma. Like you have extra four years of worthless bill accumulations. Guess , right now, it's more important to go to a college/university that has the connections. The open market is flooded with similar kids coming out with virtually identical resumes. At least my era had the 80's boom from 83 on. At least we had a light at the end of the tunnel that wasn't an oncoming train.

All I can say is keep plugging away like an actor working tables until he gets that big break. I truly feel sorrow for what so many of you are facing. Just have to keep saying to yourself you'll find a way......probably worth spending 7 dollars a week on a Cash 5/Lotto ticket.The way things are, a dollar a day might be worth a shot. Just don't quit.

[billycw]

- I actually think that the whole manual labor thing is going to be remedied in the next four years. Because of massive student loan debt, technical and vocational schools will begin filling up. I toured WyoTech in Blairsvill e, PA about a year ago with my cousin, who wants to be an auto body repair tech. Let's just say that it isn't easy material. You have to have a brain on your head. But I can tell you right now that if he goes there, he's going to be making at least $50 an hour - or since my stepdad is a Benz tech, probably almost $100 plus benefits and uniform - after shop rates. In short, in 2020, we may have a shortage of office jockeying.

I still think that college does not prepare anyone any better than taking a kid at 18 and having him or her tag along. Training is irrational when the labor pool is so large.

This is very true....there are so many kids that aren't going into labor out of high school since the 80's. Those jobs just aren't there. Factories are gone, plants outsource to other countries and you need a skill out of high school if you don't go to college. The economy is much more intertwined with other countries than the 80's. Truly a Global economy for better or worse. Tech schools are probably a safe bet, but they aren't cheap either. You need to get $$ to enter the schools. Less than college, but those kids are in the same financial boat as college kids trying to earn money JUST TO GET to their next goal...to pay for tuition. This makes it much, much harder for college kids who are scraping along while still in school or biding their time until a break comes along. What I fear is that those college kids may be forced to become the labor force because the jobs they are trained for with education aren't there. In essence, the old labor force in the US in the 60's to 80's are now in Thialand, China etc. It's probably at the point ...now...that one country will make a group of things,others make products specific to that country ( like only Germans making cars without a great deal of competition).This can't be good if you are a college grad last few years. You are essentially competing with a kid in France or Japan for a job that you only competed with an American for in 1987.

[M2nFarisFan]

Spot on, Billy. Actually, there's a lot of benefits to getting someone to begin working at 18. I'm sure that since you are probably at least in your 40s judging by your knowledge of the 1970s Flyers teams, you understand how it used to be that you'd get your diploma, and you'd find work and start at the bottom and begin learning the ropes and working your way up. I've heard that it became "cool" to go and get the sheepskin in the 80s, especially in the Rust Belt, where offshoring of manufacturing jobs made the "mentifacturer", to steal a line from Alvin Toffler, the assurance to the middle class. I still think a lot of the baby boomers are afraid to have their kids go to shop class because of offshoring. The truth is that a plumber or electrician is impossible to offshore. However, I also know that the "hypothetical send your kid to trade school" mantra doesn't work. Last year at this time, I was in a noncredit electrical maintenance and wiring class at a community college. The diagramming was not hard, but having to strip wires and turn a screwdriver is pretty darn wearing, especially on your arms and wrists.

In terms of the silver spoon theory, I can say that it doesn't guarantee anyone any jobs. In fact, it can work against you. I mentioned my friend Carina. Her parents are pretty much the most well-to-do out of anyone. But she is still toiling at the lower levels, and she told me she hates her job - tremendously. And that's a $44k a year position in New York City. But I also know of a man who had nothing but his brain and his hands and a back-of-the-envelope knowledge of the atmosphere. He is my age and I doubt he is making less than $70k right now as a risk assessor. The issue is not in the "silver spoon" economics. I don't mind if some rich CEO wants to send his kids to party at State U. We don't have to issue him or her a degree in the end. But there's a mentality that everyone needs that degree, which means the rest of us who financed it through taking the money out of the bank are really SOL when the BS becomes the new HS.

There is a remedy to it, at least in my opinion: When you are 16, you are given an aptitude test. It covers everything: math, science, English, computer skills, tech skills, simple E&M, and the like. It takes the place of the SAT, but is cheap - say, $20. You get your scores and are given a choice. If you have aptitudes in certain subjects, you are told that you can go to school for them for a reduced cost. If you want to be a basket weaver, well, you pay the $160k Penn State degree cost. But the federal government won't finance it - you get scholarships, or someone with some coin to back you.

When you get to higher education, the first two years are learning the essential skills - no "intro to" or "studies" bullcrap. If you are an engineer, you do calculus I-IV, mechanics, E&M, fluid dynamics, AutoCAD. Third and fourth year, you pay your tuition to have a company train you in an apprenticeship to learn your craft. Even if it is plumber or electrician. At the end of the day, company gets free labor, you get real-world skills and references, you don't really pay any more than getting the sheepskin, and when you graduate, you are set to go, indoctrinated into the system.

It sounds really simple, but in this world today where there are literally 1 in 3 Americans who aren't working, well, you gotta do what you gotta do.

[TheNewNeko]

OK, Neko, don't take this the wrong way. I get your points, and they are valid. However, there's a couple of things I disagree with.

- First off, if you think the Master's is the way to go to guarantee a job, think again. Remember my friend Carina? She got her 160k Ped State degree and got into a Big Four. But she was worked off her horse, even though she had the CPA certification in addition to the MS/MBA. And all the people she started with? All at the bottom. A lot of them being Bachelor's holders. I'll be honest with you, with Obama wanting everyone to go to college, give it 10 years and a non-thesis Ph.D. will be the entry level.

Do you know why I went back? It wasn't really to say a "Master's is better than you!". No. There were two main factors that made my decision what it was. The first was after 99 weeks of unemployment, the government decided to give me the big middle finger. The second is that my Bachelor's Degree is from 2001. It is 11 years old. I actually was in college right when Enron collapsed, and Worldcomm went right afterwards. So I actually had to return to learn about Sarbanes-Oxley and what has happened in the world of business since then. Believe it or not, when you're an entry-level accountant, the amount of exposure you get to changing trends is virtually nil. Why? Because chances are your boss expects you to keep atop of it, because he hasn't had a college course either at all or since they used 3.5" floppies.

No number of degrees will assure you a job, however, the more you have, the better your odds are. You play Texas Hold 'em, right? So you know the percentage plays and how you tend to be a little more aggressive with better plays. You have The Eyes of Texas in your hands, and you wait for the guy to hit you with a big bet and then you show him who's boss. Or you have a 6-5 suited and get that nice flush or straight that no one expected you to. It's all about odds.

- I think I confused you on the first one. I would take the $12 an hour job, but not at 70+ hours. Actually, no company should have workers do more than 45-50 legally. They should have to hire others by law. I can say that the short-term extra benefits would be balanced out by increased revenues in the synoptic scale. I've done 50 a couple of times (5 days of open-close at the store). The issue I had with this company was primarily the fact that $12 an hour is NOT a living wage. $30 an hour is barely that, especially with the fact that it costs $680 a week for food now here at my house.

that's the exact reason I asked you this, Steve-o. My first job had 15 weeks of busy and 37 weeks of blah. During the peak times at the job, it would not be unheard of for me to work 60 hours a week. At 70, I imagine you'd come home and be near dead. How people can do it is beyond my recognition, but some people have it. I'm the kind of person that wants to have fun with his life.

- In terms of the Penn State degree, the issue (as I've always noted) is recognition. Sure, you can accuse me of being a member of NAMBLA. But I've also noted (somewhere on the interwebz) that 5-10 years from now, the Penn State degree of this era (classes of probably 2008-2016) are going to be looked upon as the ultimate underdogs in the industry. I know you've gone to University of La Verne, but outside of California, it's essentially nothing (I've tried to tell a few people about it, and they said "Who?". And I can tell you with the fact that accountants, along with engineers and X-ray techs are probably the next big offshoring project, especially with the increased taxes in the next few years. Given the fact that you don't need physical plant when you can crunch numbers in Shanghai, and paying you $100 when a high-schooler can do the computing for 90% less, I'd say Carina and I both have the name recognition, so she could move to New York and me to essentially anywhere where there's air, water, and minerals. And with 100 million+ working age adults out of work, you need everything pulling for you - it may make the difference. Just a thought.

Your friends have never read Forbes Magazine, apparently, because for the third year in a row, it's one of the best colleges to go to. But when people think of California, they think of USC (the University of Spoiled Children), UCLA, Stanford or Berkeley. However, considering that the University of La Verne actually beat a couple of these colleges, that's saying something.

For the most part, if you go to an accredited college and get the degrees, it tells the employers that you have the balls to stick with it. Just think about that one.

- I actually think that the whole manual labor thing is going to be remedied in the next four years. Because of massive student loan debt, technical and vocational schools will begin filling up. I toured WyoTech in Blairsvill e, PA about a year ago with my cousin, who wants to be an auto body repair tech. Let's just say that it isn't easy material. You have to have a brain on your head. But I can tell you right now that if he goes there, he's going to be making at least $50 an hour - or since my stepdad is a Benz tech, probably almost $100 plus benefits and uniform - after shop rates. In short, in 2020, we may have a shortage of office jockeying.

That's actually quite plausible. Everything else is offshoring, or even more fun, automating. In fact, I was hearing how Human Resources is already approaching 100% automation. Machines look through keywords in a resumé and look for words and they force employees to take tests every few months for sexual harassment compliance. Scary, isn't it? Of course, seeing as almost everyone I know in H.R. has exactly the personality of most computers, I guess it was inevitable.

- Finally, a good point in this: It should dawn upon you, Big Steve, that if we continue to have an attitude where we treasure profits over all, that we're not going to have jobs created. Carina has a job I know you'd want - trust me on that. The problem is that the huge cubicle centers are America's version of Foxconn. And the wages aren't much better. Sure, I can see a point where you'd be able to get past it by going to corporate America, away from the call centers. And you'd be fine with it. But all those temp agencies and 20 jobs in 15 years? It's not your Asperger's at all. It's the corporate attitude of trickle-up economics. The inherent issue of continuing to keep the labor pool large and wages down is not making this country any better.

To some extent, I think everything had a factor to do with it. Of those 20 jobs, I had exactly 4 chances to stay long-term with the company. The other 16 were literally temp jobs (one of which lasted a whopping 96 minutes, but most were 1-2 weeks). You have a point about depressed wages, however. Things are just bad.

A lot of people are blaming Obama for it because of the healthcare plan, but I always tell people that it's your responsibility to get the skills and knowledge necessary for the job. Obama doesn't care about you. Neither would Romney, or Roseanne Barr, or Michael Douglas if he was the POTUS.

Here's something to throw into the debate forum. Thanks to the Affordable Care Act, many businesses are trimming to 28-29 hours a week so that they don't have to pay the health care fees. I'm seeing that number meaning a U-6 rate of 20 to 22%. With tens of thousands of layoffs happening, do you think this is going to be the "new norm"? If so, you'll probably see wages crash.

I realized that throwing my arms up in the air and saying "it's hopeless" doesn't work. The economy is not as bad as most make it. Despite the fact that if I finish the M.S., I may very well be nearing $250,000 spent on college, I know that taking initiative works. But there are a lot of other skills besides the degree. Like the mantra that your interview is over in the first 15 seconds of speaking with the company representative. And even though I'm a lot closer to the 1% than you, I do work for minimum wage and gross about $1300 a month after taxes and commission.

That's rough, man. Seriously. But at least you have the $250 grand to plunk. The problem is simply this, for those of us who have never been anywhere near the 1%: the standard is getting higher and higher, and the options are either work for $8.00 an hour, if you can get in (my motor skills make working in fast food difficult) or spend tens of thousands of dollars getting an education and end up with a burden that you may never be able to pay back.

I still think that college does not prepare anyone any better than taking a kid at 18 and having him or her tag along. Training is irrational when the labor pool is so large.

Like I said, college used to be reserved for people to start critically thinking, now it's just a barometer to how dedicated you plan to be at the job you want to take.

[billycw]

Here's a real problem....if the tax hikes go to 39 %, as they probably will, for the 225 and up crowd, where are people going to work? Very rich people hire special folks to be around them.The vast majority of real decent paying jobs come from the 225-750 range from non-corporate employers. So, unless you plan on working at K-Mart etc, the job pool is going to be even tighter because people in that bracket aren't going to buy into the Affordable Health Act and have to pay insurance AND salary when the tax hikes are making THEM work harder just to keep up with what they have right now.Honestly, I won't be able to hire someone full-time next year because the economy is at a precipice. The extra burden of hiring someone will cost me far more than it will help. The best bet for a small business is to hire 1-2 people Part time to avoid the tax burden that will exist if I hired Full-time. That stinks, but costs keep sky-rocketing. You have to do what is best to survive.
Now, think of most small businessmen( women, o.k.) that are in similar situations. They are going to be frugal in what they do because many loopholes are being closed in 2013. This makes it difficult to help anyone who truly needs a job.It also makes you fear taht anyone who is overly qualified will bolt quickly...and you can't blame them. But you would be amazed how many people act like 12.50 an hour to answer phones is a burden.